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phonology_and_orthography [2014/10/30 12:32] ob [Z and X] |
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- | ===== Content ===== | + | ~~NOTOC~~ |
- | ==== Lateral approximants ==== | + | < |
- | * **L/l** (runic **ᛚ**) for [l] | + | |
- | ==== Nasals ==== | + | ## What is Folksprak? |
- | * **M/m** (runic **ᛗ**) for [m] | + | |
- | * **N/n** (runic **ᚾ**) for [n] | + | |
- | * [ŋ]? | + | |
- | * some proposals also include [ŋ], what makes sense since this sound is quite common in Germanic languages | + | |
- | * mostly the bigramm **ng** is proposed as its written representation | + | |
- | * another posssibility would be to take an unused symbol, e.g. **q** (or **ᛝ** in runes) | + | |
- | ==== Plosives ==== | + | _Folksprak_ is the name of a project that aims to construct an inter-Germanic |
- | * **P/p** (runic **ᛈ**) for [p] | + | |
- | * **B/b** (runic **ᛒ**) for [b] | + | |
- | * **T/t** (runic **ᛏ**) for [t] | + | |
- | * **D/d** (runic **ᛞ**) for [d] | + | |
- | * **K/k** (runic **ᚲ**) for [k] | + | |
- | * **G/g** (runic **ᚷ**) for [g] (not totally clear, e.g. [[References# | + | |
- | * [θ] and [ð]? | + | |
- | * most proposals don't include these two as most Germanic | + | |
- | * by the bigramms **Th/th** and **Dh/ | + | |
- | * by the symbols **Þ/ | + | |
- | * [[http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/folkspraak/ | + | |
- | ==== Fricatives ==== | + | Folksprak is not meant to be designed by any one individual, |
- | * **H/h** (runic **ᚺ**) for [h] | + | |
- | * **F/f** (runic **ᚠ**) for [f] | + | |
- | * **S/s** (runic **ᛋ**) for [s]? | + | |
- | * **Z/z** (runic **ᛉ**) for [z]? | + | |
- | * **R/r** (runic **ᚱ**) for [r] or [ʁ]? | + | |
- | * **V/v** for [v]? | + | |
- | * [[http:// | + | |
- | * [ʃ]? (and [ɕ]?) | + | |
- | * most Germanic languages have that sound | + | |
- | * but none has a certain symbol for it (except from Yiddish with Hebrew letters) | + | |
- | * bigramm **sh** like in English? | + | |
- | * unused letter, e.g. **c** like in Lojban or **x** like in Spanish? | + | |
- | * diacritic symbol on another letter, e.g. **ŝ** like in Esperanto? | + | |
- | * **sc**, with **c** not otherwise used? | + | |
- | * **sj**? (would have the mildly adverse effect of blurring the distinction between [ʃ] and [sj]). | + | |
- | * [χ]? | + | |
- | * bigramm **ch** like in German and Scotish? (according | + | |
- | * unused letter, e.g. **x** like in some Slavic languages? | + | |
- | * diacritic symbol on another letter, e.g. **ĥ** like in Esperanto? | + | |
- | ==== Z and X ==== | ||
- | Are we going to use the letters Z and X to represent consonant pairs? If so, the first question is which values precisely they will take; Z will be /ts/ __and/or__ /dz/, and X will be /ks/ __and/or__ /gz/. A second and more esoteric question is how to double them, assuming a consonant-doubling system is chosen. The following options exist: 1, no doubling (Z and X) which is simple but either leaves the length of the preceding vowel unclear, or means that it must always be short; 2, simple doubling (ZZ and XX) which though simple, is misleading, because you'd think the pairs should be pronounced " | + | ## Why another damn Wiki? |
- | ==== Semivowels ==== | + | |
- | * **J/j** (runic **ᛃ**) for [j] | + | |
- | * **W/w** (runic **ᚹ**) for [w] or [ʋ]? | + | |
- | * [[http:// | + | |
- | ==== Vowels ==== | + | Good question! But the answer is quite simple: other than the two already existing wikis and most other resources, this one is not about a specific dialect of Folksprak. Instead, it intends to gather and structure ideas, considerations and all the different proposals |
- | * **I/i** (runic **ᛁ** or **ᛇ**) for [i] or [ɪ]? | + | |
- | * **E/e** (runic **ᛖ**) for [e], [ɛ] or [ə]? | + | |
- | * **A/a** (runic **ᚨ**) for [a], [ɑ], [æ] or [ʌ]? | + | |
- | * **O/o** (runic **ᛟ**) | + | |
- | * **U/u** (runic **ᚢ**) for [u] or [ʉ]? | + | |
- | * **Ø/ø** or **Ö/ | + | |
- | * **Y/y** or **Ü/ü** for [y] or [ʏ]? | + | |
- | A controversial subject is the question about long and short vowels: | ||
- | === Variant 0a: No distinction === | + | ## Goals of the project |
- | * all vowels are spoken with equal length (e.g. all with moderate length) | + | |
- | * advantages | + | |
- | * easy to learn | + | |
- | * seems to be the most intuitive compromise | + | |
- | * (smooth text-appearance) | + | |
- | * disadvantages | + | |
- | * not common in Germanic languages | + | |
- | * less possible word-roots | + | |
- | === Variant 0b: No indication === | + | Folksprak shall be constructed as a language that is: |
- | * distinct between long and short vowels but use the same writing for both | + | |
- | * advantages | + | |
- | * (smooth text-appearance) | + | |
- | * disadvantages | + | |
- | * not common in Germanic languages | + | |
- | * very unphonetic and thus hard to learn, since one has to memorize the pronunciation of every single word (which holds for the majority of the English vocabulary) | + | |
- | === Variant 1a: Vowel doubling === | + | 1. intelligible with little or no training to Germanic |
- | * single vowels are spoken short | + | 2. simple enough for ease of learning to write or speak about normal topics |
- | * double vowels are spoken long | + | 3. precise enough to deal with more complex topics |
- | * like in Dutch, Afrikaans and some words in German and English | + | |
- | * advantages | + | |
- | * common in Germanic | + | |
- | * flexible | + | |
- | * disadvantages | + | |
- | * not consistent, since vowel doubling can also occur in composita, where one speaks the vowels separately (like in the German word // | + | |
- | * potentially words with triple or even quad vowels (like in the English word // | + | |
- | * some words are harder to recognize | + | |
- | The first two disadvantages can be circumvented by using a splitting symbol (e.g. // | + | where the importance descends from first to last |
- | === Variant 1b: Lengthening-symbol === | + | ## Content |
- | * use a symbol (e.g. **h** like in the German //Zahn// (tooth) or a completely different symbol like **:** or ** ' **) to make a vowel spoken longer | + | |
- | * advantages | + | |
- | * close to IPA | + | |
- | * flexible | + | |
- | * consistent if the symbol does not belong to the alphabet itself | + | |
- | * disadvantages | + | |
- | * not common in Germanic languages (except for German, which uses the inconsistent version with **h**) | + | |
- | * quite a posteriori, so words are harder to recognize | + | |
- | === Variant 1c: Distinct letters === | + | ### Linguistic subjects |
- | * every vowel has a long and a short form, that are written with different symbols, for example by adding a diacritic symbol (e.g. ā, ã or ȧ) | + | |
- | * advantages | + | |
- | * flexible | + | |
- | * consistent | + | |
- | * disadvantages | + | |
- | * not common in Germanic languages | + | |
- | * not easy to write (especially in case of symbols that already have a diacritic ornament like å and ü (if existent in the alphabet)) | + | |
- | === Variant 2: Implicitly on consonant doubling/ | + | - [Phonology and orthography](? |
- | * in front of single consonants vowels are long | + | - Grammar |
- | * in front of double consonants | + | - [Declension](? |
- | * like in Norwegian, Swedish and some words in German and English | + | - [Conjugation](? |
- | * advantages | + | - [Attributes](? |
- | | + | - [Word order](?id=word_order) |
- | * disadvantages | + | - [POS marking](? |
- | | + | - Vocabulary |
- | | + | - [Guidelines for word formation](? |
- | | + | |
- | | + | - [Pronouns](? |
+ | - [Adpositions](? | ||
+ | | ||
+ | | ||
+ | | ||
+ | | ||
+ | | ||
- | Of course these variants can be mixed or bound to conditions (like the stress or the position of the vowel in the word). | ||
- | === Variant 3 (or " | + | ### Other content |
- | * a hybrid of variants 1 and 2 | + | |
- | * every vowel is short by default, but long if it is in the first syllable of a multisyllabic word and there is only one consonant separating it from the next vowel. | + | |
- | * final A and E are short by default; I, O, and U are long by default (?) | + | |
- | * if an otherwise-short vowel needs to be made long, it is doubled. | + | |
- | * if an otherwise-long vowel needs to be be made short, the consonant after it is doubled. | + | |
- | * advantages | + | |
- | * quite intuitive | + | |
- | * disadvantages | + | |
- | * most of the disadvantages of vowel and consonant doubling | + | |
- | * not common in Germanic languages | + | |
- | * harder to learn | + | |
- | ==== Open questions ==== | + | |
- | * diphthongs | + | |
- | * stress (e.g. FOLKspraak or folkSPRAAK or either) | + | |
- | * foreign and loanwords | + | |
- | What are the names of the letters of the alphabet? A simple approach would be to let the vowels be themselves, and the consonants be themselves plus A; thus //a, ba, ca,// etc. This way, the names are obvious, and conflict with other words is minimised | + | - [Concept Collection](?id=words) |
+ | - [References](? | ||
+ | - [Sample texts](? | ||
+ | - [Protocols](? | ||
+ | - [Notepad](? | ||
- | Something else that people might like to think about is the possibility of enabling " | ||
- | ==== See also ==== | + | ## Other Resources |
- | * [[Guidelines for word formation]] | + | |
- | ===== Discussion ===== | + | ### Current |
- | Just a note: there could theoretically be another variant, just using the most " | + | - [IRC-Channel on freenode.net](irc://irc.freenode.net/## |
+ | - [Mailing-list](https:// | ||
+ | - [Folksprak (Germanic Conlangs)](http:// | ||
+ | - [other content on folksprak.org](http:// | ||
+ | - [Intergermanic - Middelgermanisch](https:// | ||
+ | - [Folksprak Telegram group](https:// | ||
- | A way of deciding, on the other hand, would be to look in more detail on how common and widespread each system are, and chose the most common (or, as in the above, two very common). | + | ### Old or out of date |
- | The possible disadvantage with consequence is that it makes some words less recognizible. Depending on the individual, this may make it harder to understand. Likewise, some will probably feel like inconsequent spelling makes the language hard, and inconsequence may for others not be any bigger obstacle. I'm getting lost here, but I don't think that inconsistent spelling, nor a bit lessened recognizability is any larger problems. (And personally, inconsistent spelling hasn't been any big obstacle when learning a language.. As you probably even can see here though, I'm not sure about the english spelling in all cases. But practically, | + | - [Yahoo-group](https:// |
+ | - [geocities.com](http://web.archive.org/ | ||
+ | - [furorteutonicus.eu](http:// | ||
+ | - [en.wikibooks.org](http:// | ||
+ | - [Omniglot](http:// | ||
+ | - [FrathWiki](http:// | ||
- | == The doubling idea (from user Ob) == | ||
- | In a nutshell, vowel doubling is used, and accents are only necessary in special cases; for example, **ruum** [ru:m], **bu** [bu:], but **bùung/ | + | ### Other projects |
- | ^ Vowel ^ Pre cons. ^ Pre vowel ^ Final ^ Vowel ^ Pre cons. ^ Pre vowel ^ Final | + | - Interlingua |
- | | /a/ | **a**,â | a,â | **a**,â | /A:/ | **aa**,à | à | aa,à | | + | - [Official webpage](http:// |
- | | /E/,/@/ | **e**,ê | ê | **e**,ê | /e:/ | **ee**,è | **e**,è | **ee**,è | | + | - [Interlingua (IALA) group](https: |
- | | /I/ | **i**,î | î | î | /i:/ | **ii**, | + | - Slovianski |
- | | /O/ | **o**,ô | ô | ô | /o:/ | **oo**,ò | **o**,ò | **o**,oo,ò | | + | - [Information and learning material](http: |
- | | /U/ | **u**,û | û | û | /u:/ | **uu**,ù | **u**,ù | **u**,uu,ù | | + | - [Wiki](http:// |
- | | /9/ | ø | ø | ø | /2:/ | **ø** | ø | ø | | + | - [ZetaBoards](http: |
- | | /Y/ | y | y | y | /y:/ | **y** | y | y | | + | - [Lexicon](http: |
+ | - [Меджусловянска бесѣда / Medžuslovjanska besěda](https:// | ||
+ | - Anglish | ||
+ | - [Wiki](http: | ||
+ | - Cognate Finder | ||
+ | - [Reddit-Page](https: | ||
- | As you can see, I don't know what to do about the front rounded vowels yet... | + | </markdown> |
- | + | ||
- | J-diphthongs are easy to form (**aj**, **oj**) but with U-diphthongs there' | + | |
- | + | ||
- | Confession: I'm not sure what the situation is in the Continental Germanic languages regarding final vowels and vowels before other vowels (my system is English-inspired in this regard) in terms of the long/short distinction, | + | |
- | + | ||
- | ===== Decisions made in the discussion on IRC ===== | + | |
- | + | ||
- | * **L/l** for [l] | + | |
- | * **M/m** for [m] | + | |
- | * **N/n** for [n] | + | |
- | * bigramm **ng** for [ŋ] since this representation is used in all Germanic languages and therefore it is the one that is most easily recognizable (according to goal #1) | + | |
- | * **P/p** for [p] | + | |
- | * **B/b** for [b] | + | |
- | * **K/k** for [k] | + | |
- | * **G/g** for [g] | + | |
- | * **T/t** for [t] | + | |
- | * **D/d** for [d] | + | |
- | * [θ] and [ð] are not included and get replaced by [d] or sometimes [t] in the word-derivation from English and Icelandic (the only two Germanic languages that still have these sounds) | + | |
- | * **H/h** for [h] | + | |
- | * **S/s** for [s] | + | |
- | * **V/v** for [v] | + | |
- | * **F/f** for [f] | + | |
- | * **R/r** for [ɾ] | + | |
- | * **J/j** for [j] | + | |
- | * [w] is not included | + | |
- | * [x]/[χ] is not included | + | |
- | * **C/c** for [ʃ] — whether this one is used in normal words will be decided later | + | |
- | * it is allowed to pronounce the letters a little different, for example **v** as [ʋ] or **s** as [z], where the sounds from above are the default | + | |
- | + | ||
- | If you've got strong arguments against any of these decissions, feel free to add them here or visit the IRC-channel! | + | |