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This shows you the differences between two versions of the page.

--- phonology_and_orthography [2014/10/31 12:00]
fenris [Z and X]
+++ phonology_and_orthography [2020/12/03 21:05]
fenris
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-===== Content =====
+~~NOTOC~~
-==== Lateral approximants ====
+<markdown>
-  * **L/l** (runic **ᛚ**) for [l]
-==== Nasals ====
+## What is Folksprak?
-  * **M/m** (runic **ᛗ**) for [m]
-  * **N/n** (runic **ᚾ**) for [n]
-  * [ŋ]?
-    * some proposals also include [ŋ], what makes sense since this sound is quite common in Germanic languages
-    * mostly the bigramm **ng** is proposed as its written representation
-    * another posssibility would be to take an unused symbol, e.g. **q** (or **ᛝ** in runes)
-==== Plosives ====
+_Folksprak_ is the name of a project that aims to construct an inter-Germanic zonal auxlang, a language that can be easily understood by any speaker of a Germanic language (a group numbering over 465 million native speakers with an additional 300 to 900 million speaking English as a second language) without ever having learned it. You don't believe that's possible? Here's an example: if you are a (native) speaker of English, German, Dutch, Swedish, Norwegian, Danish, Icelandic, Afrikaans, Yiddish or some other Germanic language (see a [complete list](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Germanic_languages)) there's a great chance that you will know what a sentence like _„Ek hav skrivt en buk“_ is supposed to mean.
-  * **P/p** (runic **ᛈ**) for [p]
-  * **B/b** (runic **ᛒ**) for [b]
-  * **T/t** (runic **ᛏ**) for [t]
-  * **D/d** (runic **ᛞ**) for [d]
-  * **K/k** (runic **ᚲ**) for [k]
-  * **G/g** (runic **ᚷ**) for [g] (not totally clear, e.g. [[References#sko03|sko03]] proposes to speak this letter as [j] in words ending with **-ig**
-  * [θ] and [ð]?
-    * most proposals don't include these two as most Germanic languages eliminated them except of English and Icelandic
-    * by the bigramms **Th/th** and **Dh/dh** (almost like in English)?
-    * by the symbols **Þ/þ** (runic **ᚦ**) and **Đ/ð** (like in Icelandic)?
-    * [[http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/folkspraak/surveys?id=1637305|this poll]] resulted in replacing these sounds with [d] (written **d**) and/or [t] (written **t**)
-==== Fricatives ====
+Folksprak is not meant to be designed by any one individual, but rather a collective work created by all interested parties; so you're welcome to participate.
-  * **H/h** (runic **ᚺ**) for [h]
-  * **F/f** (runic **ᚠ**) for [f]
-  * **S/s** (runic **ᛋ**) for [s]?
-  * **Z/z** (runic **ᛉ**) for [z]?
-  * **R/r** (runic **ᚱ**) for [r] or [ʁ]?
-  * **V/v** for [v]?
-    * [[http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/folkspraak/surveys?id=1627085|Poll in yahoo-group]] voted for using this sound and symbol for the proto-Germanic [w]
-  * [ʃ]? (and [ɕ]?)
-    * most Germanic languages have that sound
-    * but none has a certain symbol for it (except from Yiddish with Hebrew letters)
-    * bigramm **sh** like in English?
-    * unused letter, e.g. **c** like in Lojban or **x** like in Spanish?
-    * diacritic symbol on another letter, e.g. **ŝ** like in Esperanto?
-    * **sc**, with **c** not otherwise used?
-    * **sj**? (would have the mildly adverse effect of blurring the distinction between [ʃ] and [sj]).
-  * [χ]?
-    * bigramm **ch** like in German and Scotish? (according to [[http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/folkspraak/surveys?id=2014124|poll 1]] and [[http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/folkspraak/surveys?id=2014106|poll 2]] most people prefer this)
-    * unused letter, e.g. **x** like in some Slavic languages?
-    * diacritic symbol on another letter, e.g. **ĥ** like in Esperanto?
-==== Z and X ====
-Are we going to use the letters Z and X to represent consonant pairs? If so, the first question is which values precisely they will take; Z will be /ts/ __and/or__ /dz/, and X will be /ks/ __and/or__ /gz/. A second and more esoteric question is how to double them, assuming a consonant-doubling system is chosen. The following options exist:
+## Why another damn Wiki?
-  - no doubling (Z and X) which is simple but either leaves the length of the preceding vowel unclear, or means that it must always be short;
-  - simple doubling (ZZ and XX) which though simple, is misleading, because you'd think the pairs should be pronounced "tsts" and "ksks";
-  - explicitness (TS and KS) which is simple but which is incongruous alongside the "implicit" originals;
-  - first-half doubling (TZ and KX) which chimes nicely with German for TZ (e.g. Schnitzel, rather than Schnizel) but which is unfamiliar with KX; and 5, second-half doubling (ZS and XS) which is functionally just like the previous option but visually more unfamiliar.
-=== Remarks ===
+Good question! But the answer is quite simple: other than the two already existing wikis and most other resources, this one is not about a specific dialect of Folksprak. Instead, it intends to gather and structure ideas, considerations and all the different proposals for an inter-Germanic auxlang, in order to compare them and to name their advantages and disadvantages. The hope is that this leads to a solid base for making rational and fair decisions about specific parts of the language so that in the end there should be a conclusion that most parties can agree with. Maybe a little bit naïve, but I think that it is worth giving it a try.
-Consonant-cluster-shortcuts like these are more common in Romanic and Slavic languages. The orthography becomes less phonetic when using them and as shown above it starts to get weird when having short and long vowels in the language. So i guess they are only relevant if using vowel-variant 0a or 0b, since except of #1 none of the options above is common in any Germanic language or any other language i know. I tend to use the explicit forms **ks**, **ts**, …
- --- //[[fenris@wh17.tu-dresden.de|Fenris Wolf]] 2014/10/31 11:35//
-==== Semivowels ====
-  * **J/j** (runic **ᛃ**) for [j]
-  * **W/w** (runic **ᚹ**) for [w] or [ʋ]?
-    * [[http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/folkspraak/surveys?id=1627085|Poll in yahoo-group]] voted for replacing the letter from proto-Germanic with [v]
-==== Vowels ====
-  * **I/i** (runic **ᛁ** or **ᛇ**) for [i] or [ɪ]?
-  * **E/e** (runic **ᛖ**) for [e], [ɛ] or [ə]?
-  * **A/a** (runic **ᚨ**) for [a], [ɑ], [æ] or [ʌ]?
-  * **O/o** (runic **ᛟ**) for [o] or [ʊ]?
-  * **U/u** (runic **ᚢ**) for [u] or [ʉ]?
-  * **Ø/ø** or **Ö/ö** for [ø]?
-  * **Y/y** or **Ü/ü** for [y] or [ʏ]?
-A controversial subject is the question about long and short vowels:
+## Goals of the project
-=== Variant 0a: No distinction ===
+Folksprak shall be constructed as a language that is:
-  * all vowels are spoken with equal length (e.g. all with moderate length)
-  * advantages
-    * easy to learn
-    * seems to be the most intuitive compromise
-    * (smooth text-appearance)
-  * disadvantages
-    * not common in Germanic languages
-    * less possible word-roots
-=== Variant 0b: No indication ===
+. intelligible with little or no training to Germanic speakers
-  * distinct between long and short vowels but use the same writing for both
+. simple enough for ease of learning to write or speak about normal topics
-  * advantages
+. precise enough to deal with more complex topics (e.g. science, maybe philosophy)
-    * (smooth text-appearance)
-  * disadvantages
-    * not common in Germanic languages
-    * very unphonetic and thus hard to learn, since one has to memorize the pronunciation of every single word (which holds for the majority of the English vocabulary)
-=== Variant 1a: Vowel doubling ===
+where the importance descends from first to last
-  * single vowels are spoken short
-  * double vowels are spoken long
-  * like in Dutch, Afrikaans and some words in German and English
-  * advantages
-    * common in Germanic languages
-    * flexible
-  * disadvantages
-    * not consistent, since vowel doubling can also occur in composita, where one speaks the vowels separately (like in the German word //beenden//)
-    * potentially words with triple or even quad vowels (like in the English word //seaeagle//, which would actually be something like //siiiigəl// if written more phonetically but with vowel doubling)
-    * some words are harder to recognize (e.g. **miin** for the word //my,mine//)
-The first two disadvantages can be circumvented by using a splitting symbol (e.g. //be'enden//, //sii'iigəl//)
+## Content
-=== Variant 1b: Lengthening-symbol ===
+### Linguistic subjects
-  * use a symbol (e.g. **h** like in the German //Zahn// (tooth) or a completely different symbol like **:** or ** ' **) to make a vowel spoken longer
-  * advantages
-    * close to IPA
-    * flexible
-    * consistent if the symbol does not belong to the alphabet itself
-  * disadvantages
-    * not common in Germanic languages (except for German, which uses the inconsistent version with **h**)
-    * quite a posteriori, so words are harder to recognize
-=== Variant 1c: Distinct letters ===
+- [Phonology and orthography](?id=phonology_and_orthography)
-  * every vowel has a long and a short form, that are written with different symbols, for example by adding a diacritic symbol (e.g. ā, ã or ȧ)
+- Grammar
-  * advantages
+    - [Declension](?id=declension)
-    * flexible
+    - [Conjugation](?id=conjugation)
-    * consistent
+    - [Attributes](?id=attributes)
-  * disadvantages
+    - [Word order](?id=word_order)
-    * not common in Germanic languages
+    - [POS marking](?id=pos_marking)
-    * not easy to write (especially in case of symbols that already have a diacritic ornament like å and ü (if existent in the alphabet))
+- Vocabulary
+    - [Guidelines for word formation](?id=guidelines_for_word_formation)
+    - [Word functions](?id=word_functions)
+    - [Pronouns](?id=pronouns)
+    - [Adpositions](?id=adpositions)
+    - [Conjunctions](?id=conjunctions)
+    - [Numbers](?id=numbers)
+    - [Colours](?id=colours)
+    - [Wordlist](?id=wordlist)
+    - [Habitual Expressions](?id=habitual_expressions)
-=== Variant 2: Implicitly on consonant doubling/clustering ===
-  * in front of single consonants vowels are long
-  * in front of double consonants (or consonant-clusters) vowels are short
-  * like in Norwegian, Swedish and some words in German and English
-  * advantages
-    * common in Germanic languages
-  * disadvantages
-    * inflexible
-    * not consistent, since consonant doubling/clustering can also occur in composita, so that it can become unclear, if the vowel before is a long or a short one
-    * potentially words with triple consonants (like in the German word //Schifffahrt//)
-    * doesn't work for vowels at the end of a word
-Of course these variants can be mixed or bound to conditions (like the stress or the position of the vowel in the word).
+### Other content
-=== Variant 3 (or "1.5"): Vowel AND consonant doubling ===
+- [Concept Collection](?id=words)
-  * a hybrid of variants 1 and 2
+- [References](?id=references)
-  * every vowel is short by default, but long if it is in the first syllable of a multisyllabic word and there is only one consonant separating it from the next vowel.
+- [Sample texts](?id=sample_texts)
-  * final A and E are short by default; I, O, and U are long by default (?)
+- [Protocols](?id=protocols)
-  * if an otherwise-short vowel needs to be made long, it is doubled.
+- [Notepad](?id=notepad)
-  * if an otherwise-long vowel needs to be be made short, the consonant after it is doubled.
-  * advantages
-    * quite intuitive
-  * disadvantages
-    * most of the disadvantages of vowel and consonant doubling
-    * not common in Germanic languages
-    * harder to learn
-==== Open questions ====
-  * diphthongs
-  * stress (e.g. FOLKspraak or folkSPRAAK or either)
-  * foreign and loanwords
-What are the names of the letters of the alphabet? A simple approach would be to let the vowels be themselves, and the consonants be themselves plus A; thus //a, ba, ca,// etc. This way, the names are obvious, and conflict with other words is minimised (if the letter D was //di// instead of //da//, for example, there would be ambiguity between the pronoun and the letter).
-Something else that people might like to think about is the possibility of enabling "invisible little schwas", such as exist in words like **apl** and **spasm**. NB, the only other popular auxlang that does this is Idiom Neutral.
+## Other Resources
-==== See also ====
+### Current
-  * [[Guidelines for word formation]]
-===== Discussion =====
+- [IRC-Channel on freenode.net](irc://irc.freenode.net/##folksprak) (if you don't use a separate IRC-Client you can use [Kiwi IRC](https://kiwiirc.com/client/irc.freenode.net/?nick=sprekar_?&theme=cli##folksprak) or [Freenodes official webclient](http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=##folksprak)
+- [Mailing-list](https://lists.schokokeks.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/folksprak) <folksprak@lists.schokokeks.org>
+- [Folksprak (Germanic Conlangs)](http://www.facebook.com/groups/folksprak/) (Folksprak group in Facebook)
+- [other content on folksprak.org](http://folksprak.org)
+- [Intergermanic - Middelgermanisch](https://www.facebook.com/groups/2365060660454127) (Middelgermanisch group in Facebook)
+- [Folksprak Telegram group](https://t.me/folksprak) (discussion chat group in Telegram)
-Just a note: there could theoretically be another variant, just using the most "common" spelling of each word, which would give a mix of variants. If the languages do not differ to much, or if one minimises the differences, this would give a not to complex orthography - interlingua is done in this way, keeping differences but minimizing them. If not, this would just be inconsequent and cluttery.
+### Old or out of date
-A way of deciding, on the other hand, would be to look in more detail on how common and widespread each system are, and chose the most common (or, as in the above, two very common).
+- [Yahoo-group](https://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/folkspraak/) and its currently broken mailing-list <folkspraak@yahoogroups.com>
+- [geocities.com](http://web.archive.org/web/20011203135008/http://www.geocities.com/folkspraak/) (the old website through a backup on web.archive.org)
+- [furorteutonicus.eu](http://www.furorteutonicus.eu/folkspraak/wiki/) (an older Wiki that requires a password for editing)
+- [en.wikibooks.org](http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Folksprak)
+- [Omniglot](http://www.omniglot.com/writing/folkspraak.htm)
+- [FrathWiki](http://www.frathwiki.com/Folksprak)
-The possible disadvantage with consequence is that it makes some words less recognizible. Depending on the individual, this may make it harder to understand. Likewise, some will probably feel like inconsequent spelling makes the language hard, and inconsequence may for others not be any bigger obstacle. I'm getting lost here, but I don't think that inconsistent spelling, nor a bit lessened recognizability is any larger problems. (And personally, inconsistent spelling hasn't been any big obstacle when learning a language.. As you probably even can see here though, I'm not sure about the english spelling in all cases. But practically, spelling errors is not that much of a flaw in the understanding and usage of a language, it shouldn't be over-estimated. One still understands the language, and can make yourself understood - the disadvantage is that it has a low status and risc making you look incompetent..).
-== The doubling idea (from user Ob) ==
+### Other projects
-In a nutshell, vowel doubling is used, and accents are only necessary in special cases; for example, **ruum** [ru:m], **bu** [bu:], but **bùung/buûng** [bu:UN]. Here's a full listing (NB, macrons could be used instead of graves), where the options in each slot are ranked from left to right in order of preference, and where the main vowels are in bold.
+- Interlingua
+    - [Official webpage](http://interlingua.com)
+    - [Interlingua (IALA) group](https://www.facebook.com/groups/interlingua.IALA)
+- Slovianski / Interslavic
+    - [Information and learning material](http://steen.free.fr/interslavic/)
+    - [Wiki](http://isv.orain.org/)
+    - [ZetaBoards](http://s8.zetaboards.com/Slovianski/index/)
+    - [Lexicon](http://dict.interslavic.com/)
+    - [Меджусловянска бесѣда / Medžuslovjanska besěda](https://t.me/interslavic) (Interslavic chat group in Telegram)
+- Anglish
+    - [Wiki](http://anglish.wikia.com/wiki/Main_leaf)
+- Cognate Finder
+    - [Reddit-Page](https://www.reddit.com/r/linguistics/comments/ibqwtz/cognate_finder/)
-^ Vowel ^ Pre cons. ^ Pre vowel ^ Final ^ Vowel ^ Pre cons. ^ Pre vowel ^ Final
+</markdown>
-| /a/ | **a**,â | a,â | **a**,â | /A:/ | **aa**,à | à | aa,à |
-| /E/,/@/ | **e**,ê | ê | **e**,ê | /e:/ | **ee**,è | **e**,è | **ee**,è |
-| /I/ | **i**,î | î | î | /i:/ | **ii**,ij,ì | **i**,ij,ì | **i**,ii,ij,ì |
-| /O/ | **o**,ô | ô | ô | /o:/ | **oo**,ò | **o**,ò | **o**,oo,ò |
-| /U/ | **u**,û | û | û | /u:/ | **uu**,ù | **u**,ù | **u**,uu,ù |
-| /9/ | ø | ø | ø | /2:/ | **ø** | ø | ø |
-| /Y/ | y | y | y | /y:/ | **y** | y | y |
-As you can see, I don't know what to do about the front rounded vowels yet...
-J-diphthongs are easy to form (**aj**, **oj**) but with U-diphthongs there's a choice between U and W. I suggest writing /aU/ as **au**, and using W for the other, rarer ones.
-Confession: I'm not sure what the situation is in the Continental Germanic languages regarding final vowels and vowels before other vowels (my system is English-inspired in this regard) in terms of the long/short distinction, so it may be that the system can be improved there. I also have a distorted perception of certain instances of vowel + R.
-===== Decisions made in the discussion on IRC =====
-  * **L/l** for [l]
-  * **M/m** for [m]
-  * **N/n** for [n]
-  * bigramm **ng** for [ŋ] since this representation is used in all Germanic languages and therefore it is the one that is most easily recognizable (according to goal #1)
-  * **P/p** for [p]
-  * **B/b** for [b]
-  * **K/k** for [k]
-  * **G/g** for [g]
-  * **T/t** for [t]
-  * **D/d** for [d]
-  * [θ] and [ð] are not included and get replaced by [d] or sometimes [t] in the word-derivation from English and Icelandic (the only two Germanic languages that still have these sounds)
-  * **H/h** for [h]
-  * **S/s** for [s]
-  * **V/v** for [v]
-  * **F/f** for [f]
-  * **R/r** for [ɾ]
-  * **J/j** for [j]
-  * [w] is not included
-  * [x]/[χ] is not included
-  * **C/c** for [ʃ] — whether this one is used in normal words will be decided later
-  * it is allowed to pronounce the letters a little different, for example **v** as [ʋ] or **s** as [z], where the sounds from above are the default
-If you've got strong arguments against any of these decissions, feel free to add them here or visit the IRC-channel!

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